[Michael Green]

Hi TuneLand,

It's time to take a look at the parts inside of your components and know what their function is. This may seem a little redundant to some, but as we get into this you will learn which parts of your system slow things down and which parts speed things up. This of course brings us to a new chapter of tuning that I call "Rhythm and Pace".

Once you remove the dark sound or the brittle sound from your system, you can begin working on the "Rhythm and Pace". You have probably already noticed that you have experienced some of this already. Some times when you put on a CD it seems like the music tempo runs a little slow or is a little fast. What you may not know is this is something that can be controlled by tuning.

Another interesting fact is (for those of you who are table lovers) is this is where the digital age out-performs the vinyl age. You see with vinyl a third of the music is actually cut right off the top of the grooves. If not your woofers would be laying on your lap. In the digital age though we can control the pace and tempo without making the drivers go nuts. In fact if you own tunable speakers most of the extra energy will transfer into the cabinet instead of the cone. If you ever see your cones moving too much then this means you have an electrical problem.

So hopefully you are ready to learn what each individual part does and how it can be tuned

Those of you still hanging on to over mass products may want to think about selling before moving this far into tuning.

tunees

ARE YOU READY
_________________
Michael Green
MGA
Las Vegas,NV
702 368 7550
info@michaelgreenaudio.com

[Matt Marquardt]

Hi Michael,

As you know, I've decided to leave my components intact, and have been more than happy with the results I'm getting. So, I don't know how deep into this I'll be able to go with you. However, I'm certainly interested in the discussion, and learning what I can.
_________________
Matt Marquardt

[Michael Green]

Hi Matt,

That's fine, at least you will have a better understanding of what sounds are coming from what part of the system. It's good to be able to picture our systems like a flow chart. For people coming in this will help them when they need to make decisions on purchasing products. It should also help them spot a problem area within a current system they may own.

Either way your comments on the combined A/V systems are priceless.


_________________
Michael Green
MGA
Las Vegas,NV
702 368 7550
info@michaelgreenaudio.com

[Michael Green]

Hi TuneLand,

When people think of the parts that their systems are made out of they usually overlook, even by-pass the biggest part in their system. This of course is the room. The room, and the construction of any building is the biggest component that we must deal with. I say this because many of you are not gypsy's like myself that explore as many places as I can, and study their environment. If you did than I would be calling the #1 part your environment. As we go through the room please keep in the back of your mind that your particular system's performance completely depends on where you are physically located.

When designing a component the biggest mistake that a designer will make is the thought that he or she is representing the entire world with their product. This could not be any further from the truth. This is the first place where TuneLand draws the line in true audio designing. Truth be known, I would much rather trust a simple design built and tested in the mass market scene than I would a small company environment, stuck in a place that has its own set of values of sound that can never be matched again once it leaves the shop. The mere thought of this make no sense at all. This is one reason why trade shows for the audio world have little value when it is time to choose your component. Hanging on to these ideas only lead to a compromised system. On the other hand many people don't mind living in a compromised world.

Keep it simple. By this I mean explore your particular environment, and realize the possibilities, then start to think about how far you as a person wish to go into the world of harmonic structures. Why did I use the words "Harmonic Structures" ? This is the most fundamental part of life. Harmonic structures effect ever breath we take every move we make. Harmonic structures are the universal rule behind everything that moves.

There is far more movement going on inside of the world of audio than we can possibly imagine. There is also more movement inside of a human than we can possibly imagine. These two worlds must come together in harmony to ever come close to yielding the results that can be considered the "Real Thing". If the real thing is what you are after than you will reap much from this thread as a whole in not only the listening part but in the human factor part as well.

Do you know how many Molecules make up the un-see-able part of your room. One square inch of your room is made up of over a trillion molecules. Yes, there is more going on in your room than you could ever put your finger on. This why I completely disagree with those who seek to kill the room instead of using and controlling it. A waste of space is a waste of music, and this misuse leads to compromise in every area of our lives.

A music system has the job of conveying a message. If you chose to not get the message or just a small part of it than that is your choice. As for myself I want to get as much as I can. This means of course that it is time to throw away the myths of acoustics and get real.

How many inches of music do you have in your system?

Just the beginning in the study of the parts of our systems.


_________________
Michael Green
MGA
Las Vegas,NV
702 368 7550
info@michaelgreenaudio.com

[Michael Green]

Hi TuneLand,

Next lets talk about wire (the nervous system of your system).

Just as your human bodies are mostly filled up with miles of interconnects so is your audio system. Each interconnect depends on other interconnects to make the body function properly. Our A / V systems work exactly the same way. A blockage or over sized connection can cause disaster. Right now while you are listening you may be thinking why is my system shutting down or sounding closed in. Well a big part of this is because your system may not be in balance when it comes to the size of the conduits carrying the signal.

This is one of the biggest problems in the High End industry today. We are trying to send a delicate signal through many different sounding wires. After a while your system can sound like one big tangled up fishing line.

Imagine yourself as the signal. Your traveling along this nice even path, and all of a sudden you hit this huge amount of mass that you have to push your way through to get to the other side. This is what your audio signal goes through every time it encounters another part. your wire is the stability factor that stabilizes these encounters. One wrong length or size and your system is out of balance. You can run out and buy a thousand of different components to try to fix the problem and still end up with a system that does not project a life size image.

Part 2 of this is the cable game.
_________________
Michael Green
MGA
Las Vegas,NV
702 368 7550
info@michaelgreenaudio.com

[Michael Green]

Hi Tuneland,

Part 2 "The Cable Game"

There have always been interconnects in audio, all the way back to the very beginning. These interconnects where made very simple and sounded quite good. In the mid 80's just at the time that recording studios were about to make their cable even smaller (as you can witness by looking inside of a mid 8o's recording console) the High End (not using the Audio Trilogy, or even Webster as their guide) decided to hit the buying public between the wallet. Thus was born the cable game. I can remember it well. I was playing around with small solid core cable with one of Stan Warren's (of PS Audio, later to be superphon) guys, Steve Nelson. We were spending a lot of time talking about how great the industry was starting to sound. Things were low mass, and the soundstage was very open and big. It was a great move for audio enthusiast. I could name many designers who were following this path. That's when, like out of the blue, this mass game started. Remember I was a very young pup at this time and was working in many studios, TV shows, live concerts, and stereo. Plus I had my reputation as a recording artist, as well as an up and rising store. Audio was all I thought about, and all I had done, 24 / 7. You could not slip anything by my ears at this time, and was written up in the AES for my micing techniques. I was called in on many special events to lend my ears to the sound. Including JT, David Bowie, the Bee Gees, and any Broadway hits like Guys & Dolls, and of course The Rocky Horror Picture Show.

I say this here because, it's important for you to know that I wasn't a nerd sitting in a garage playing with a scope. I was a full fledge trained, on the road engineer, who had all of the state of the art testing equipment at my disposal. When I saw the High End Audio change happen I was no fool. I had plenty of money, and brought this "new world" in to not only test for myself but to listen to. Don't believe me, then go take a look at Audio Mag. archives and you will see ads with me carrying everything. I almost hate to keep bringing this up but it seems that people in High End loose sight very easily and forget that I was one of them.

Back to the Cable Game. I ordered in hundreds of the High End cables over the next few years only to learn that each of these brands were in one way or another choking out the sound. I had a very serious talk about this with one of the head people from "Audio Magazine", as well as one of the highly respected audio designers (who's name you would recognize) over dinner at one of the CES's in Vegas. Remember at this time there where 250,000 devoted Audiophiles, and some curious millions waiting to see what the industry had in store. As we talked off the record, it was clear that the High End world was forming a money machine more than an improved audio hobby. Why were these people talking to me? I was at that time one of the largest acoustical companies on the scene, and was busy tuning in all of these systems. Picture an audio designer running up to you at a show saying my system sounds terrible, you must help me make it sound good before the show begins. This by the way is also hinted in Stereophile magazine in the early 90's. My thought of course was "why can't these designers make good sound on their own?" this is a question you should be asking yourself even now as I write this.

The Cable Game was made for 1 reason and 1 reason only. They knew you would buy it There was no revelation here, High End Audio was turning into a money maker, and getting you to switch in and out your cables was their game.

Lets look at the facts here real quick. "Quick" being the key word. Everyone knows that it takes months if not years for any audio gear to break in. Yet you got set up with this false A / B testing plan and Audiophiles bought into it hook line and sinker. Instead of teaching you how to listen you were taught how buy, buy, buy, and replace, replace, replace. The buyer was treated no better than a brake pad, or tire rotation. The fact is the only reason why High End grew is because of marketing. It had nothing to do with sound. Still don't believe me. Look at the price that the 60's Tube gear is still going for over todays tube gear. How can an audio product be selling for 5 or 6 times it's original price, and at the same time High End gear today can be bought for a dime on the dollar after it is only one year old?

High End Audio Cable is one of the most guilty parties of all.

Part 3 "the real sound of cable"

PS: We're not in the innocent early 80's any more toto.


_________________
Michael Green
MGA
Las Vegas,NV
702 368 7550
info@michaelgreenaudio.com

[Matt Marquardt]

Hi Michael,

I agree that there is more "snake oil" in the cable and interconnect market, than just about anywhere else in the audio world. There's just no reason to spend an arm and a leg on cable. However, there's one thing about the whole idea of large diameter cable causing "blockage" or resistance, when it comes to the guage of speaker wire one uses, that has always bothered me. For example, what about the effects of long cable runs like one typically finds in commercial applications.

I've noticed, that most people seem to end up using the type 2 speaker cable in their systems, which gives you an aggregate wire guage of about 19AWG. Some have even gone to a single 22 AWG conductor. So, as an example, let's say you were installing a system in a small night club. The equipment room is 100 feet away from the speakers, and you're going to be sending 500 watts per channel to the two main cabs. Would you still use speaker wire this small, for this kind of application? If not, why not? Conventional wisdom states that a reduction in wire guage creates an INCREASE in resistance. Which can reduce SPL levels, and damping factor. I understand that a little more resistance might be desirable when trying to create harmonic "balance" in ones system, but you seem to suggest that smaller cable creates a decrease in resistance.

Am I missing something?
_________________
Matt Marquardt

[Michael Green]

Hi Matt,

I'm completely fascinated by this finding myself. The first time I experienced this was during a Broadway play. I was maybe 18 at the time, and was fortunate enough to do some cool shows. One night I noticed the head engineer adding bulk to the speakers, and speaker cables in a larger venue that we needed to move to because of the plays popularity. After listening awhile I noticed a lack of quality and volume. We were pushing the faders to the max and the sound only got worse. Time for me to take a chance (you know me). It didn't make sense to me that the big Crown Amps where not able to push the JBL stacks on either side of the stage. The next day I went down to the supply house and bought a small guage solid core instead of the huge stranded guage wire he used. The run was about 250' per side. After I hooked it up, and turned on the sound I was floored by the new found clarity and power. I ended up removing part of the stack and the sound improved even more. The real test would come at night though when the park was full.

When the head engineer saw what I had done he gave me my notice that this would be my last show. Fortunately for me there where some TBS folks in the crowd. We ran the faders at half that night, and I pick up a job with the summer concert series as head engineer. The cable I used back then was similar to type 3. Type 3 at 250'. The question of less is more from that moment to now has been answered. Ever since that night my thought process about signal has changed.

At the same time let me also say this. Heavy equipment with huge transformers, and heavy drivers with huge magnets and voice coils are what cause the resistance, not the wire. As we go through this study I hope that we will be able to prove the flaws in over mass designs, as well as talk about some of the test that I have done personally on this issue.

Very good question. One that we need to take a good look at as we explore a balanced system.



I'll let the others think about this a minute and then get to the experiments. Also you may want to look at your sources that speak of conventional wisdom. I bet they don't go any deeper than the AES. Here's a hint, think of the power of a laser beam : the natural oscillations of atoms or molecules between energy levels for generating a beam of coherent electromagnetic radiation.


_________________
Michael Green
MGA
Las Vegas,NV
702 368 7550
info@michaelgreenaudio.com

[BonnyMiss]

Hello TuneLand


A word used in the last two posts caught my eye..........Conventional wisdom:-


used to describe certain ideas or explanations that are generally accepted as true by the public.
Conventional wisdom is also often seen as an obstacle to introducing new theories, explanations, and so as an obstacle that must be overcome by such revisionism.Conventional Wisdom has a property analogous to inertia, a momentum, that opposes the introduction of contrary belief; sometimes to the point of absurd denial of the new information set by persons strongly holding an outdated (conventional wisdom) view. This inertia is due to conventional wisdom being made of ideas that are convenient, appealing and deeply assumed by the public, who hangs on to them even as they grow outdated. The unavoidable outcome is these ideas will eventually not match reality at all, so conventional wisdom will be violently shaken until it doesn't conflict reality so blatantly.


Now after stating this, I add; I love music and good music deserves a good sound system. Maybe it is time to step out of the box of conventional thinking when it comes to tuning? You owe it to yourselves. I am enjoying reading Tuneland and have gleaned a wealth of knowledge in a short space of time. Keep the the information coming.


Bonny
_________________
Tears that I shed are the trail to bring you home.

[Michael Green]

Hi TuneLand,

Thank you Bonny, and Matt. In the area of mass and resistance the audio industry journals have made a critical mistake. It's true that it sometimes is hard to get our thoughts around the reality that less is more. In-fact it almost seems like a contradiction until you begin putting this to the test. The main question one has to ask is. Where did we go wrong in our thinking? It's obvious that more mass means more resistance, and yet some how in audio we have turned this backward.

Here on TuneLand we have seen systems using as little as 30 guage cable producing far more sound than higher mass cables. The industry however pushes the other direction. This has always puzzled me until I did my own experimenting. My MGA cables types 2, 3, and 4 were designed for flavor and texture. Playing with these cables as we have done on other threads shows us the different sounds we can achieve, by changing the tension of the winding of the cable. When we did our SPL testing is where some of the surprises really came into play. I'm sure that the point of signal loss would have eventually taken its toll, but in our 100 meter testing the 22 guage solid core cable delivered the highest SPL levels over the other cables and cable sizes tested. The tests were done with both low and high mass audio products. We had 25,000' spools to keep going, but we stopped at 100 meters. There were also other parts to the tests once we decided on the size make up, and rating of the cable. One of these test we called the telephone pole test. This is what gave me the idea for the cable grounds. We found out that we could control not only the sound but also the SPL of the cable by stringing the wire along much like what you would see on a telephone pole.

The whole project kept bringing us back to the fundamental definition of Audio, according to Webster.

audio : of or relating to acoustic, mechanical, or electrical frequencies corresponding to normally audible sound waves which are of frequencies approximately from 15 to 20,000 hertz

We found that the vibration of the cable made as much, or even more of a difference than the wattage going through the cable. The mystery was here. How could a 25 watt 3 pound amplifier give more SPL and less distortion over a 100 meter run, than a 1000 watt 50 pound pro amp? Keep in mind that this particular Pro amp was rated in Stereophiles class A rating. Also keep in mind that the light weight amp was far more tunable. These tests where done with three different types of speakers, Pro, conventional, and tunable loudspeakers.

I realize that this flies in the face of some of the audio industries claims, but these were our findings none the less. I always encourage people to do their own tests and come to their own conclusions. This series of tests however reminded me of another common flaw in the typical, or as we were calling the conventional thinking. If you read most Audiophile journals, or engineering journals you will read to produce sound waves in a linear fashion you must start with a sonically dead room. Killing the sound to produce sound, this makes no sense at all. Recording studios are quickly returning to live rooms to produce music in again. In a recent interview with Tony Bennett, he and his partners in crime (including Elton John) were talking about how happy they are to finally be returning to the world of live rooms to record in, instead of dead rooms.

Take a look at my studio design at SUNY and Abbey Road Studio, and you will see a remarkable resemblance. Conventional audio practices would call both I and the Abbey Road (the most famous studio in the world) wrong. It's time for the truth to shine, and it will, in time. There's a gentle balance that the industry has been trying to put its finger on for a while now. We have swung from one end to the other and now back. This to me is what makes this hobby fascinating to talk about.

Note: Matt, I just need to say that this post isn't pointed at you, but I felt that this was a good place for us all to talk about the things that we have been taught vs the things that we find to be true through our own, and others testing.


_________________
Michael Green
MGA
Las Vegas,NV
702 368 7550
info@michaelgreenaudio.com